John D. Burns talks to author and wild walker Andrew Terrill about his experiences in igloos and argues his corner on the benefits of hot tents in the winter.

Sound Editor Derek Williams

A winter camp amongst heavy snow and in bitter cold can be a magical experience. Andrew talks about how he learnt to build igloos in the wilds of Colorado and John talks about his experiences in his hot tent in Scotland.

Andrew Terrill talks about his first igloo experience.

My first igloo adventure took place in January 2016, in Rocky Mountain National Park, and it wasn’t only memorable for the igloo but also for whom I went with: the one and only Igloo Ed!

Igloo Ed

Igloo Ed is the creator of the ICEBOX, a remarkable tool for building backcountry igloos. Igloo Ed is a one-of-kind mountain man. Knowledgeable, experienced, generous, patient, a natural storyteller, and above all an artist when it comes to rearranging snow, Igloo Ed was my teacher and guide for our overnight trip. If he looks like a cross between Dumbledore and Gandalf the resemblance would be appropriate: the way he bends snow to his command is pure magic.

The site that Igloo Ed had planned for our shelter lay far above, at timberline on the sheltered side of a wild ridge. To get there we had to weave upwards through the impressively deep and steep fields of snow pictured here, and then afterwards tackle an 800-foot climb through steeply-pitched, snow-buried krummholz, all the while exposed to a blasting, spindrift-laden, sideways wind. After negotiating the snowfield I took one look at the krummholz climb and – not liking the look of it – opted to save it for another day. Igloo Ed, despite having his heart set on the higher igloo site, accepted my call without revealing even a flicker of disappointment. A mountain companion who does that is a mountain companion worth having.

A new site for our igloo was soon chosen, well-sheltered from the worst of the biting wind. The first stage was to build the foundation, carefully turning waist-deep powder into a perfectly level platform of concrete-hard snow. It seemed like an impossible proposition, but with Igloo Ed’s know-how it was soon achieved.

The Ice Box tool

Next, the ICEBOX tool was fixed together and put into use, and the igloo began to take shape. Igloo Ed continually talked about how good the snow was, even though to me it looked like the kind of loose powder you couldn’t even make a snowball from. Fortunately, the snow-wizard knew how much to disturb it, how long to leave it, and how firmly to pack it, and – magically – the snow blocks held together. Igloo Ed carefully explained every step of the process, and despite my many mistakes the igloo rose. If I’d have been by myself, constructing an igloo with the powdery snow would have seemed unlikely, but with Igloo Ed at hand I felt not a doubt we’d succeed. “Trust” the tool, Igloo Ed said. I did… and I trusted the man and his experience even more.

The concept for the ICEBOX is fairly simple – a block-shaped slip form slowly pivoting around an extendable pole, used to build blocks that spiral upwards – but the devil lies in the details, in the well-thought out subtleties of the tool’s construction and in the way it is used. As Ed explained, “The ICEBOX is a tool, and like all tools you have to learn how to use it.” It may look easy, but if not used correctly things can go wrong. But in practiced hands, it can build an igloo from every type of snow.

The finished igloo was a work of art – there was no other word for it. With the temperature outside at 10°F (-12°C), and the biting winter wind blowing hard, a solid-walled shelter was definitely appreciated. A tent would have been okay, but the flapping walls, limited space, and the lack of insulation wouldn’t have made sleep easy. The igloo on the other hand was solid as a castle, and surprisingly warm within – many, many degrees above freezing.

A Hot Tent is another amazing way to camp in winter. It’s major advantages are : You don’t need snow. It’s very warm. You can dry your clothes in it. Disadvantages: It’s not very portable being pretty heavy. It’s expensive being around £3k

Transcript

Audio file

igloos final edit.mp3

Transcript

Hello, welcome to Outdoors in Scotland. My name’s John Burns and this is my podcast for folk like the outdoors in Scotland or pretty well anywhere else for that matter. This is the first time we’ve had a contest on Outdoors in Scotland. It’s a contest between me and my hot tent and a man who’s familiar with igloos and ice and snow and all that kind of thing. My guest today is Andrew Terrell. He’s the author of The Earth Beneath My Feet and On Sacred Ground. two fantastic books and he’s a really just someone who really enjoys getting out into the outdoors and we’re gonna discuss the various merits of igloos and my hot tent and we’ll see who wins I guess. Hi Andrew how are you?

I’m very well thank you thank you for having me back on your show.

Well you’re very welcome Urioko. Now you live in Colorado so it’s a very different environment from Scotland. Can you tell us when did you start? When was the first time you started to get into igloo building?

Well I built my first igloo in.

Right.

I think the process started so much earlier because all of our influences impact how we live our lives going way back to childhood. Yes, And so for me, I put the igloo building process back to being a little seven-year-old kid in the suburbs of London, desperate for snow. And you live and love snow because of its transformative power. Of course, as a seven-year-old, you aren’t able to frame it that way. way. But as a kid, I saw snow as something that sometimes meant no school, which of course is the holy grail of childhood. I saw how it transformed the landscape into something completely different. You know, you wake up in the morning and suddenly it’s white and soft and totally different as though you’ve traveled 3,000 miles north to the Arctic. And I saw how it transformed the behavior of adults around me. You know, suddenly they became playful and fun and they wanted to go outside and throw snowballs. I thought But as a little child, that was pretty cool. So I love snow, not just because it was beautiful, but because it changed everything. But I remember one time when we had a rare, heavy snowfall in Pinner in North West London. By heavy, I mean, you know, 2 inches. That was shockingly heavy to me as a child. And so it was beautiful. And I wanted to go out and romp with my three brothers and build, little snow walls to throw snowballs at each other from behind. But I had a horrible cold. My mom, understandably said, no, you can’t go outside and play in the snow. You’re only going to make it worse. So I saw I was looking through the window at my three brothers having a great time. And there I was stuck inside. And my mom, because she loved me, despite not letting me go out to play in the snow, packed some snow into a little ice cream tub. and brought it into the house. And so I sat there sadly in the corner, building a little three-inch tall snowman that turned into snow. And this left a scar. But forever after, I was destined to spend the rest of my life obsessed with making up for that moment of sheer childhood trauma.

Right.

And of course I overexaggerate the trauma, but still, so I fell in love with snow and I think it paid a part in why I fell in love with the mountains and because the snow fell on them in winter more than it did back in the suburbs. I could play at being a polar explorer in snowy places. And so I guess that’s where the love of snow began. I always liked getting out into it. I enjoyed winter camping, even though it, of course, had a fairly high range, high spectrum of physical discomforts that went a lot.

Oh, you see, you’ve not experienced a hot tent, you see, that’s where you’re slipping up, you see.

I will, we’ll get, we’ll get to that. And in many ways, it spoiled. the podcast completely but I may even have to concede um defeat to your hot tents in terms of sheer comforts but um maybe not there are ways.

Maybe not no we’ll we’ll see we’ll see.

So anyway um I I ramble sometimes, so I’ll try and cut this long story short. As you know, I went for some very long hikes when I was in my 20s. The longest had me living outside an entire winter from one end and then out the other and then back into another winter before that walk up Europe even ended. But then after that, I wasn’t quite done and I came to North America to do another long walk. During that, in 2000, I met a woman who I fell in love with, who’s now my wife. I ended up moving here to where she lives in Colorado rather than her moving to London. It wasn’t a hard decision.

No, I wouldn’t imagine it is.

Well, you know, because they have snow here in winter, even down in the foothills where I live, we get snowfalls that measure in multiple feet, not just two inches. Two inches is a snowfall. It’s why did you even bother? So yeah, we get we get multiple feet and I would still camp in it in winter and, you know, spend most of the trips battling to stay comfortable because it really is an effort, as you know. Yes, in the wet. The hardest thing is keeping things dry. It’s not the cold, it’s not the snow. It’s the fact that everything gets wet.

That’s right.

Eventually I had kids, which of course changed my life even more than marriage. And I no longer let myself go on long multi-month backpacking adventures because I wanted to put my family first until they no longer needed me. Which incidentally, we’re almost at, which is very exciting. Wow. Yeah, indeed. You know, my oldest is 20. And so my youngest is almost 17. And so the time when I can resume to, multi-month walks is rapidly approaching. I had kids and they reached an age where playing outside in the snow was something fun to do. And so I started building little snow shelters in the garden with them. You know, you’d build a big pile of snow and then you’d hollow it out and crawl inside. And then I started building snow shelters using cooler tubs. I’d pack snow into these cooler tubs and then knock it out and use those blocks rocks to build walls and you’d make this big dome of highly dubious shape and strength. That was a fun thing to do in the yard and play with in the kids and then you could go inside and have a warm hot chocolate and recover nicely. It never crossed my mind that igloos would be a viable wilderness shelter. And it doesn’t, right? You think of igloos as an Arctic thing.

Yes.

That’s practiced by the Inuit. And you think of it as a dying practice too. reportedly building igloos when they go hunting and fishing isn’t really something they do much anymore. It’s almost a dying art. Yeah, So it never crossed my mind that someone could camp in an igloo and have a good time doing it until I picked up a copy of the Great Outdoors magazine and a story in it by Chris Townsend, who I’m sure your readers know. influential backpacker with 29 books to his name, who’s done these incredible journeys. He wrote a story about going for a, I think it was 10 night backpacking trip in Yellowstone National Park in the middle of winter. And he and his companions stayed in igloos during it, which was the first time I’d read and heard of someone doing such a thing. And I thought that was interesting. What was really interesting was that Chris Townsend described the igloo camps as comfortable and warm, which was like holy crap, if I can say that on your show. Oh yeah, I almost said something else. I skied across Yellowstone in winter 2001 and it was minus 35 at night and it was miserable. It was really hard, right at the limits of what my gear could cope with. And I would definitely not describe my camps as warm and comfortable. But Chris described his igloo camps as warm and comfortable, which definitely made me sit up and take note. And so to make his igloos, he’d used a tool called the ice box. which was actually, had actually been designed by one of his companions on that trip, someone enigmatically named Igloo Ed. Okay. Which is a great name, right?

Oh God, yeah.

With his partner, Guy Menge, he’d spent decades, you know, building snow shelters and ice cabins and such like, and he developed this amazing tool, which is basically a three-sided box fixed to an extendable pole that you pack snow into and make the blocks in place. And then you spiral it up, spiral up and finish with this perfect igloo dome. And I did my own little, my own research after Chris’s story. I found the website selling the igloo tool. And then I found Igloo Ed on social media and friended him the way you do. Right. He turned out. amazingly, to live only an hour from where I lived in Colorado. And he turned out to be a very down to earth and approachable man. And so I commented on his amazing photos of the igloos he’d built. You know, he’d built igloos in so many places, you know, on top of mountains in winter where you wouldn’t normally want to camp because they’re so windy. And there was even those pictures of igloos in parking lots and outside outdoor bothing stores. even one in Central Park, I think. So just all these amazing igloo pictures and pictures of people building igloos of all ages and sizes, having a great old time in the kind of severe conditions that you wouldn’t think you’d be sitting there with a big grin on your face. So anyway, we exchanged comments and he was very generous in his comments about my little igloos I’d built in my, you know, front garden in the deep front range snow. And eventually in January, 2016, he sent me me an unexpected message saying, hey, how do you fancy coming into Rocky Mountain National Park and building an igloo with me? And I was like, yeah, sure, why not? That was the introduction to building an igloo. I got to go into Colorado’s wilderness with IglooEd that developed the icebox tool, which was just about perfect because if anyone could build an igloo, I had to trust the person who invented the tool. So that was where it began. I’ll be honest, when we got to the trailhead on the Rigid January morning. everything is covered by deep snow and ice. And it’s weird. I think trailhead parking areas are the coldest places on the planet for some reason. Maybe it’s because you’ve just gotten out of the car, which is, you know, hot. Suddenly you step into a place though where the temperature is minus 15 Celsius, minus 20. They always seem to be ridiculously windy, these parking lots too. And so I stepped out of it. I knew we were heading into the wilderness to sleep. I didn’t have a tent in my rucksack. I knew I was going into the mountains for the first time with this older gentleman who I’d never met, who didn’t really look especially tough. You know, Igloo Ed is a shortish man. He has a long white beard. He looks a little like Gandalf or Dumbledore rolled into one, which is very appropriate the way he looks like a magician, because The way he can bend snow to his command makes him a little bit of a snow wizard. But he didn’t look like someone I really wanted to necessarily trust my life to in the middle of the wilderness. But anyway, you know, I committed to this journey. So we snowshoed into the woods. We followed a route that Igloo Ed has followed. I don’t know. hundreds of times over the past 20 to 30 years. It’s like he has this secret off-trail journey to a hidden path of the national park that he knows like the back of his hand. And it soon became apparent while walking with him that he knew, you know, he knew the mountains like the back of his hand. He knew what he was doing out there. He had a story for every twist and turn of the trail because he’d followed it, you know, all these years with so many different characters. Eventually we picked a spot deep in the wilderness You walk into the middle of this spot, but even on snowshoes, you sink thigh deep because the Colorado snow is so soft and powdery. It’s not like British mountain snow that instantly, you know, turns into wet, sugary snow and you can walk across it. It’s really dry and soft. And the idea of being able to make an igloo from this powdery snow is just, it stretches the bounds of credibility. You can’t even pick up the snow and make a snowball from it. It’s plainly ridiculous. But igloo Ed, because he knows how to work snow, demonstrated first off by carefully stamping the snow down and then shoveling more snow into it and then stamping it down and shoveling it in and then letting it set, demonstrated how to turn this, you know, 5 feet of powder into a 9, 10 foot wide solid snow platform that’s set like concrete. And then he demonstrated how to put his icebox tool together, you know, slotting the panels that make the three-sided box into one piece and fixing the pole to it and demonstrated the process of disturbing just enough snow to fill each block, just how hard enough to compress the snow so that it locked up, and then how long to leave it so it set. And before my eyes, I watched this igloo, you know, take form as the block spiraled up in a going round and then the next layer began and you spiral up until you finish with this 8 foot wide quaternary dome, essentially shaped like a medieval cathedral. So it becomes self-supporting.

Okay.

And so we built this wonderful dome. It took a long time. It was a lot of work. It took us most of a day and we didn’t actually finish until just after it had gotten dark. So it’s a process. It’s a lot of work. And of course it was slow because Igloo Ed was teaching me how to move the snow about and how to pack it in into the ice box so he can build, he’s built one with friends in three hours. I’ve never managed to do it that quickly. Can I ask one question?

I’ve always wondered, how much skill would you say it actually takes to build an ingloo? Is it a very skillful process?

I would say it’s reasonably skillful. Some people have failed. I think it’s quite hard to fail if you think about what you’re doing and you just work at it. There are some basic tools, basic tricks in terms of how you use the tool, in terms of when you’re filling the box, where you push the snow down and how hard you push it and making sure you have the angles right. It does take…

It’s a process that you’re already someone to show you how to do it by the sound of it.

Many people, the tool comes with a little booklet. All right, okay. And I think if you practice a little bit at home, making a few blocks before you go, and of course, I know it’s not really the ideal tool for United Kingdom at all, because you rarely have enough snow for it to be a viable mountain camping tool. And also, you really want it to stay cold for a while so that you can maximize the benefit you get from spending a day building an igloo. Because I know sometimes you get a decent fall of snow and you might build your igloo and then two days later… It’s warm and moist and then the igloo doesn’t last the way it does here in a cold mountain environment. No.

And how comfortable is it actually? You said it was going to be warm and comfortable. Tell me how warm and comfortable it is.

Well, so that’s the thing. That first igloo camp, looking at the igloo from the outside, I thought, oh, it’s going to be, it’s going to be like an ice box as the tallest name, Joe. It’s going to, it looks like it was going to be small and dark and claustrophobic inside. So even though we built the solid thing, and even though I do trust what Chris Townsend had written, that it was going to be warm and comfortable, I couldn’t get over my instinctive hesitance to spend a night in the damn thing. But stepping into it for the first time was kind of a revelation. Iglouetta built a trench into it. So the entrance was below the platform floor level. But there was also a walkway into it as well, which meant you could stand up tall in the igloo, you didn’t have to stoop, and you could sit down on the platform with your feet in the trench. So instantly it was shockingly spacious. It was like the TARDIS inside.

Right, because…

And no winter camp had ever been something I could stand up in, and move around and swing my arms and sit in comfort. I was always, lying on a camping mat and…

I think very on a stand up makes a difference, doesn’t it?

Once Igloo Ed got his little butane heater, his lantern going, and once we were sat in it on camping mats and all our stuff was moved in, the temperature inside soon warmed up into the low 50s. There was a little hole in the top so that… and airflow would continue running through it. you’d have air come in through the entrance and it would flow through the top at exactly 3.5 miles an hour, according to Igloo Ed, because of course, being a snow scientist and developer of it all, he’d measured every single aspect of what he created. And so you get oxygen flowing in, You get airflow. And so the temperature outside was about minus 20 Celsius.

Right.

The wind was blowing a hoolie, but inside, lit with the orange light of his lantern and the warmth from our bodies and the warmth from our camping stoves, you know, you could take off your gloves and hats and just sit there in shirt sleeves and move around almost. I mean, it’s not a hotel, but it felt so outrageously cozy compared to every other winter camp I’d ever had. Right.

And presumably it’s quiet as well, is it?

Yeah, not completely silent. You could hear coyotes outside when they howled. You could hear the wind rushing through the pines to a small degree.

Right.

But only like a background murmur. Igloo Ed also created a fabric door that hangs down in the entrance. It kind of helps to maintain some heat. You leave a little gap at the bottom. so the airflow continues. When you step through that door outside, you can be like, oh my goodness, it’s miserable out here. It’s really rough. And sometimes, you know, Colorado winters at their worst really are savage. They’re not worse than Scottish winters because they’re not damp. We don’t have, I’ve been colder in Britain than I’ve ever been colder in Colorado, despite the extreme temperatures here. But when you’re in an igloo, you don’t notice it. But they’re not dark the way you’d think. The snow walls are only, they’re 8 inches thick and snow is very translucent as it is. Yeah, And so moonlight and even starlight shines through it. And in sunlight during the day, they glow like you’re in this fabulous glowing glassy receptacle. They’re actually really fun. They’re very, very cheery. So they’re warm and solid. I mean, that’s the beauty. No matter how well you pitch any kind of tent, even a hot tent. And we can start doing comparisons in a moment, I suppose. The best tent in the world is still going to flat in windstorm. That’s right. And if it’s pouring of rain, or whatever, or hail, you’ll hear it in a tent. In an igloo, you’re as snug as a bug in a rug inside that.

Okay.

You know the worst winds the mountains can throw at you aren’t going to knock it down.

Right, It’s pretty indestructible once it’s up.

I mean, yeah, the morning after a night in an igloo, once it’s frozen solid, because basically it will freeze inside, it will thaw a little bit inside, your body heat and a warmth will create this, you know, layer of ice coating the inside that usually freezes solid overnight while you sleep. And then in the morning, you can climb up and stand on top of the igloo and it’s not going to collapse.

Wow.

They’re solid. So you basically have an indestructible shelter. Obviously, it’s not going to be indestructible if you’ve pitched it underneath a crag and a bunch of rocks fall on top of it. So an avalanche, you know, running at 100 miles an hour or 200 miles an hour is it would probably take it.

Obviously it is. Yeah.

Unlike a hot tent. So is the indestructibleness of the quietness at night a point towards the igloo or a point towards a hot tent?

I think the igloo wins in terms of quiet. You’re right. We’ve only got about 10 minutes left, so I’ll just talk a little bit about the hot tent and I’ll go into that. Just to give people an idea, a hot tent is based on a Scandinavian design, really. It’s basically a canvas bell tent. And the amazing thing about it is that you have a wood-burning stone that fits in and chimney that goes up through the tent. Now I’m sure, I’m absolutely confident that a hot tent will be an igloo hands down for heat. Because you really can. It’s not a warm tent, it’s a hot tent. And the ideal conditions for a hot tent really are still and very cold. Certainly minus 20 really isn’t an issue in a hot tent at all. And you did talk about the rain. What I found in the, it’s a tent tipi, my tent. What I’ve found is that they’re pretty well impervious to rain because The stove creates a sort of circulation, an air circulation. They’re only a single skin tent and they’re nothing like the sort of lightweight tents that we have. I got into the hot tent basically just as we were coming out of COVID when the bothies that I had to visit were closed. And really I wasn’t sure whether those bothies would ever reopen. And I wasn’t sure, even if they did reopen, whether they’d kind of be safe to use anymore. Just didn’t know what the situation was going to be. So I saw the hot tent. I wanted to find a comfortable way of camping in winter. And like you were saying, Andrew, you know, one of the major problems for camping in Britain is that you get wet. Once you’re wet in a tent, very, very hard to get dry if you’re talking about what we’ve come to use in Britain as the sort of the lightweight tents that we’ve got. Once you’re wet, you’re going to stay wet, really, unless you can go to a pub and dry out or something. The cocktent wins sort of hands down over that because you can hang your clothes up, you can crank the stove up, and you’ll be dry in the morning. There’s no question about that. The issue with the hot tent is actually not getting it to produce enough heat. It’s stopping it from roasting you, basically. But the downside is that, like you say, if it’s windy, the temp that I’ve got will withstand 60 mile an hour winds, I don’t think you’d get much sleep. Is that fair enough?

Yes, I’ve actually slept in a hot tent now. And I had a friend who built one and I got to spend some time in it. And yes, he had the temperature up into, you know, 20, 25 Celsius. And we were sitting there with the fire ********* the stove ********* drinking whiskey. And I have to be honest, it was one of the best camping experiences of my life. And I actually want a hot tent too, because Yeah, and I don’t think you can really dry your equipment in an igloo the way you can in a hot tent, because obviously you don’t want to get it up that hot because then the igloo might start to slap, you know, to fall in around you. So I give you that point, you win on the hot tent warmth.

The downside of a hot tent is, of course, I think my setup cost about 3 grand. I’m guessing your igloo wasn’t quite as expensive as that.

Yeah, I think the igloo tool costs about 300 pounds, something maybe slightly less. And of course, you have to, in UK, you have to get it shipped to you from America. Yeah, Here’s an interesting one, which again, doesn’t really apply to the United Kingdom, but here in Colorado, I can build an igloo and I can leave it and it will be there if I built it in a good spot for two to three months.

Oh, right.

And it might shrink. It will be this solid wilderness back country shelter that I can retreat to. You know, I can go back and be certain that I have a solid wilderness cabin. that will just be there waiting for me. I don’t have to drag all the, I don’t have to drag the tool in again.

Of course, that’s a good issue, really. I think where the igloo wins, I have to admit that a hot tent is not the most portable item around. You know, you’re lugging around a stove in a big heavy tent, so it does have that problem as well, you know.

How much does your full setup of tents and stove?

Well, the stove is about 20 kilograms and the tent’s about 12. But of course I have a carpet and also, and my chair and all that sort of stuff to lug about. So it’s, you can, if it’s a reason, what I’ve got is got one of those garden carts that you can haul stuff about in, so you can get some distance from the road if it’s a reasonable track. you can trundle your stuff away. And if you’re really dedicated, yes, you could, you could backpack away. You know, you’d probably have a bit of difficulty getting much more than a mile from the road, but you could do it.

So the icebox tool ways. goodness, I only know it’s in pounds. It’s I think it’s just over 5 pounds.

Right, So you can carry that anywhere, can’t you?

Yeah, you strap it on the back of your backpack and then you can hike. You know, you could walk all day if you needed to.

Yeah, see, that’s a big difference. And of course, on one of the other side of it is, of course, you do need snow.

Well, exactly, yes.

That is a problem, particularly in the UK.

Yeah, I think we have a clear direction we’re heading in terms of what’s best for the United Kingdom. potentially more usable in snowier places.

Well, yeah. What I would say though is that things are changing. I think one of the issues with global warming is that people are hypervigilant about fire risks these days. So going into anywhere that, you know, you’ve got a fire, even though it’s contained, I think you’re likely to be a bit unpopular, you know. And the other issue I’ve noticed is that because I think our winters are a lot windier than they used to be. And so you are facing wind, really, for a hot tent to be in its ideal situation, you want no wind and for it to be as cold as you can get it. So it’s not always ideal now. I’m not using my hot tent as much as I did when I first got it, because conditions are changing, you know? So that’s one of the issues. So yeah, I think to round things up, I’m sure you’re right. I think I would agree with you that the hot tent is by far the most comfortable camping experience I’ve ever had. And it has what I like about the content is it has a kind of atmosphere to it, you know, the canvas and you feel like you could well be a prospector in the in the gold rush in a tent like that, really, you know, it was a bit.

********* that ********* fire going on in the background and the glow when you open the door to put the wood in, you can’t beat that. You can’t.

Yeah, yeah, that’s right. That’s right. We’re almost out of time now. It’s been fascinating talking to you and I really wish I could be in Colorado one day and share an igloo with you and perhaps you can pop over here.

That would be amazing.

And we can share a tent together.

I hope we make that happen because it would be great. I love introducing people to iglooing, just like igloo ed did with me. Seeing people experience an igloo for the first time is truly wonderful.

Yeah, especially your idea about drinking whiskey in one. Anyway, okay, thanks very much, Andrew. We’re going to have to go because the gods of time have I’ve come down. Thanks very much, great talking to you.

Wonderful John, thank you.